The Twenty One Clear Podcast

Adam Hatcher: Hello and welcome to the
21 Clear Podcast where we talk about

anything to help you chaos, proof your
family business so you can build a great

company with a healthy family around it.

I am your host, Adam Hatcher,
and today our guest is, uh,

me, Adam Hatcher and producing.

And joining me today is Brandon
Yello, the co-founder of Snap Market.

Brandon, how are you?

Brandon Giella: Hey man.

Thanks for having me.

I'm really excited to be here because
I think we're gonna have a lot of fun.

So thanks for having me.

Adam Hatcher: Adam, absolutely.

Thank you for being here too.

Uh, so Brandon, I am
starting this podcast.

It's interesting.

I grew up in a successful family business.

I spent 13 years scaling
that alongside my cousin, my

grandfather, my father, my brother.

And in doing that, and really in the last
two years of reflecting on it, I learned

that you never have a family business.

you have a family business.

Inside a company, imagine two boxes.

There's the company on the outside
and the family business on the inside.

And when I decided to start this podcast,
what I wanted to do is every episode's

gonna be about 20 to 25 minutes.

We're typically gonna have a guest
and we're gonna touch an issue that is

specific to people who audaciously choose
to work together with their family.

And if you're a trusted
advisor to a family business,

it may be interesting to you.

But really for those of us that chose
to do that, and that's what I chose to

do for 13 years and what I realized in
scaling a business, you've heard that

phrase, what does it take to work in
the business versus on the business?

So it's hard enough to just work in
the business, but then in a company,

working on the company is really
hard, making the time for that.

But then when I realized
working in a family business.

Is almost none of us ever get
the time to actually work on

that inner family business.

Remember, the first family that
I've talked to since starting 21?

Clear.

Uh, it was a mother and father
who were scaling their company.

They had several of their sons and
daughters working with them, and we spent

90 minutes on the phone with each other,
and by the time we hung up, it hit me

that that was probably the most time
in several decades that they had spent.

Dedicated to working and thinking
about just that inner family business.

And so that's why this podcast exists.

I hope every time someone tunes in by
the, they get 20 to 25 minutes where all

they have to do is think about the family
business and just get a little bit better.

Brandon Giella: I can relate to that
because you need time to work on the

business and I can't imagine working
on the business and having a family

associated with that business as well.

'cause that's a whole other
thing and you're not gonna do

it in over Thanksgiving, so.

Adam Hatcher: not do it over Thanksgiving.

Brandon Giella: right.

Exactly.

Adam Hatcher: That's actually, I
think that's chapter seven, Brandon.

Brandon Giella: Okay.

Yeah, I haven't read the book yet.

I'm, I'm only in the first chapter,
so, um, but, but I'm curious, so

why, why did you, what, what's
like driving you to wanna start

21 Clear and start this podcast in
addition to creating that space?

I mean, what was like, surely you've seen
some of these things go wrong before.

I mean, you grew up in a family
business, you've been an advisor to

family businesses, you have seen it
go really well and you've seen it

maybe, uh, have room for improvement.

So what, is there something
in there that you've seen?

Like if you get this wrong, it's
really difficult, what is that like?

Adam Hatcher: Well, let me start with,
may I start with the light side first?

All right.

Brandon Giella: Oh gosh, yes, please.

Adam Hatcher: So when you work
together with family, all of

us really want two things.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: We want to build
a great company, whatever that

means to the family, and you
want to healthy family around it.

And over the last year and a half,
as I've started looking back on

my own career to this point, I.

My time around our family's company.

In our family's company, and then
all the stories that people have

shared with me along the way.

And then the things I've
researched and read, I've wondered.

So if our goal is to build a great
company and have a healthy family,

why does the opposite happen so often?

But then I, Brenda, and
that's what I call chaos.

Like why do family
businesses succumb to chaos?

That ultimately can rock the family
and drive the value down of the

company or even eliminate it.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Adam Hatcher: And then I have this
belief that it's not inevitable.

So why does the opposite happen?

And then what can you do about it?

Brandon Giella: So you, you've seen that
where chaos is sort of like a, a default

mode, you know, entropy in the universe
and in a business it inevitably feels

as though it's going to be chaotic,
but it doesn't have to be that way.

Um, but I'm curious, like, what is
it where you've seen, uh, you've got

some experiences, you've got a story
where it actually did go that direction

and it was very painful and you're.

In part this podcast is to provide,
um, expertise and stories and

guidance to avoid this kind of end.

And so tell me about this.

I, I think you've got a story in mind.

I know there's some in your book.

Um, yeah.

Talk about that.

Adam Hatcher: Well, and also
empathy, Brandon, for someone

who could say, I know, and there's
no story that's gonna be surprising

once you've worked with family.

No one else is.

I have had the opportunity to
sit with family businesses.

That did a couple million dollars
and that did tens of billions.

And what has amazed me is we
all tell the same stories.

Some people get to their vacation
destinations in faster ways, but all the

stories are, all the stories are the same.

And just like running a great
company doesn't happen by accident,

you might come across a
great product or a service.

Uh, by, by accident or happenstance,
but actually building a great

company takes a lot of effort.

Likewise, a family business
is not healthy, is not good.

Just by accident.

Just 'cause you grew up together doesn't
mean you can work together and you

can build a great company together and
keep good relationships between you.

I remember when I first started working
in our family's comp company, I went

to an industry conference and I got
to meet Jim Collins who wrote Good to

Great and Great by Choice, and he was
always fascinated and still seems to be

fascinated by this question of chaos.

Like how do some businesses go through
chaotic times, which are inevitable?

But seem to make it out better
than their comparison companies.

Well, family businesses are the same
way, but the problem when you have that

family business inside your company is
the things that can rock you and test.

You can either come from the company, it
can be the loss of a key executive, it can

be tariffs, it can be a sudden recession,
it can be the loss of a major client.

Those things can reverberate
back into the family business.

Or it can be things that are
specific to the family business.

It can be personal issues like death and
divorce, or it can be these moments that

are inevitable in a family business.

It can,

and they are inevitable in that if you're
not prepared for them, they will start.

What can be a chaotic cycle,
for example, uh, when a family

member wants to join the company?

On its face.

That doesn't seem, particularly if
you are just starting to work with

your family, or if you're starting
a business and maybe your sons and

daughters are starting to get to an age
where they're expressing interest, that

may not seem like a critical moment.

Hey, you grew up together,
you supported each other.

Um, they even maybe came to the
Christmas gatherings for the company.

Clearly, you can work together.

That's actually a major, a major moment.

I talked to Brandon.

I still remember.

I talked to a guy who destroyed, who
lost a 30-year-old family business

over an argument with his brother about
whether or not their nephew, the nephew,

was qualified to join the company.

They didn't have any criteria for
how a family member might join.

They built a successful
business for almost 30 years,

had hired plenty of people.

But there was something different
when that family business moment came

along and that issue in itself and
being unprepared for it, put chaos in.

'cause imagine those two squares put chaos
right into the center of the company.

It ended up reverberating out and not only
did it rip up the relationship between

the two brothers, but ultimately it
drove down the value of the company and

ended the ownership of it in the family.

Brandon Giella: That's amazing because
when you're running a a, a company with

your family, you would think this has
gotta be the best thing in the world.

Who wouldn't wanna work with their
family, provided that they love

their family and get along with
them, and all that sort of thing.

And so there's that.

And then there's also,
yeah, you gotta hire people.

We've got a process for that.

We've hired a tons of people like that.

But when those two things come together.

It is a a different dynamic that from your
experience, people are not prepared for.

Adam Hatcher: You are mixing, you're
mixing the forever with the temporary,

uh, or the really, maybe think of it like
the conditional with the unconditional.

Because family

Brandon Giella: it.

Yeah.

Adam Hatcher: family's unconditional.

They even think about,
think about a wedding photo.

So in a wedding photo, you think
of the, the bridesmaids and

the groomsmen on either side.

If you take that picture, my wife and
I just celebrated our 20th anniversary.

Take that.

Well, thank you.

Take that picture.

20 years later, there may be.

Some people who have
faded, those relationships

have faded.

There may be new people to
add, like those always change.

But in that wedding photo, there's forever
a spot that is only for my father-in-law

Brandon Giella: Hmm

Adam Hatcher: like that is he is
my father-in-law unconditionally.

Brandon Giella: mm-hmm.

Adam Hatcher: And that's the
unconditional nature of family.

Even if those relationships, and
I love my father-in-law, even if

those

relationships, even if those
relationships in your family change or get

difficult, they're always, that
spot's always for your mother, your

father-in-law, your sister, your cousin,
your brother, and in family businesses,

when you put those inside of a company,
you have mixed the conditional nature

of business with the unconditional.

There's this, Brandon, it is on day one.

There is an inherent tension
that comes with that.

And just because you grew up together,
just because, uh, you, you heard the

family talk about the company does not
prepare you for living with that tension.

And by the way, it shows
up on the first day.

I, I, I tell the story in the book
and my grandparents worked together.

Uh, the family's company
was started in 1973.

Uh, they worked together for one day.

My grand, my grandfather and my
grandmother got into an argument on

the first day that most employee,
employer relationships would not have

gotten into, but it ended, it ended
their working relationship on the

first day because it's just different.

Um, and it exists on the first
day, if I could tell family.

People who are considering
having family work with them.

One thing is that you can never
start working on that family business

inside the company soon enough.

I remember talking to someone
who, their family had a company

that was a couple of decades old.

They had an in-law who was running the
company and the person I was talking

to, their children were younger.

Um.

Yeah, and yet they were starting
to wonder if their children might

have a future in the family company.

It's never too early to start
the conversation because

you are inevitably moving.

When you have a family business,
you're inevitably moving toward a

healthy place or a chaotic place.

A lot like a, company.

I remember my father taught
me this right when I started

working in the family company.

He said, Adam, the business is
either growing or shrinking.

If it's holding still, that's
just a precursor to shrinking.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: And in the same way,
that's the company, the family business

is either getting better or putting
itself into danger of sliding into chaos.

And so that's why I started Twenty
One Clear to help people that take

this audacious challenge of working
together, build a great company with a

healthy family, and in building out a
process for helping people walk through

and see how they're making progress
at creating a great family business.

And then the podcast is again, it's just
supposed to be 20, 25 minutes, and we'll

constantly bring guests on who are gonna
touch something about a family business

to help you make a little bit of progress.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

I wonder if.

So, of course this is not like a hard
sales pitch in talking about 21 Clear, but

I wonder if you could provide listeners
like a, uh, some takeaways or some things

that you've learned, like what is not
necessarily the process, but what are some

things that maybe their principles, maybe
they're like focus areas or something

like that, that you have learned that.

Gives you a really good setup for
running a very healthy family business.

So I know you've talked about trust, you
know, communication, things like that.

Like what is some things that you
are advising people about that

they should keep in mind and listen
for in future episodes and, and

guest stories and things like that?

Adam Hatcher: The first thing
you need to know, you have a

family business inside your

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Adam Hatcher: I have, I remember
getting to, one of the early families

I talked to got into an argument
with the majority shareholder about

whether or not they actually had a
family business des, despite their

daughter working in the company,

Brandon Giella: Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Adam Hatcher: they looked at other
family companies that family owned

companies they knew and they said,
we're not that big or that complicated.

But the moment, the moment you have family
members working together in a company that

family owns, you have a family business.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: And you have to start
working on it because again, you're either

getting better or you're putting yourself
at risk of chaos and vulnerability.

So that's the first one.

Uh, then second, you need
to know how you're doing.

I got challenged by a few of the
first several of the families

I talked to at the beginning.

I got challenged when they
said, well, how are we doing?

Uh, I talked to one of 'em and
several of the family members

like playing golf and, and I.

I'm recording this from
Augusta, Georgia, uh,

Brandon Giella: Right after the masters,

Adam Hatcher: right after the Masters.

Ray's Creek actually runs
through, uh, my backyard.

Uh, and, and so they were a family and
they played golf and they said, well,

how do you show us how we're doing?

Kind of like if we played golf, we
knew how well we played that day.

So I actually created an assessment, a
a, a family business specific assessment.

So you need to know if you have
a family business, then you

need to know how it's doing.

And then from there, any of us
are gonna want to get better.

How do we in?

You can never stop hard moments
and storms from blowing in, but

you can prevent yourself from
being exposed to, to chaos in it.

And imagine the center of a wheel
and spokes at the center of it.

There's trust between the family
members, whether you're a family owner,

a family employee, or some combination
of family owner-employee family

member who's just around the company.

Do you trust each other?

Both the ability and the character of the
different family members who are engaged

in the company, if that's the center,
and then off of that put a few spokes.

'cause that's building
trust and that's important.

That holds everything together.

But you've gotta compliment
that with some key decisions.

A family has to decide how are
people gonna join, how are they

gonna stay, how are they gonna exit?

And that can be mid-career or succession.

And then regardless of whether
you're working in the company, how

does the family co-exist around it?

So you've got trust that holds all of that
together, but then families have to make

key decisions around those four buckets.

It's

do you have a family business?

How's it doing?

And then that's a, framework for
making decisions and building

trust to improve wherever you are.

Brandon Giella: What I love about you
is that you have the experience and then

you also have a process of going through
this that anybody can go through, and

that's different from what I gather is
the things that you've told me before.

That you can try to assess some of
these things with others that are

close to the family, like a wealth
advisor, an accountant, a lawyer.

Um, and you have talked to me in the past
about like, that may not go well for you.

Can you talk to me
about that a little bit?

Like, what do you mean by that?

Because I, I find that
a fascinating insight.

Adam Hatcher: a I tell an
embarrassing story on myself?

Brandon Giella: Please do.

Yes.

Adam Hatcher: A good friend of
mine, and I hope after this story

he'll still be a podcast guest.

So, uh, his name's Shane
Arthur and he runs an executive

coaching company outta Raleigh.

He's great at what he does and Shane put
up, uh, so we're recording this in April.

So we just came through March Madness
and, uh, I don't know when people

are listening to this, but Duke
University was a one seed in that.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: Their number one player,
probably the number one draft pick

had turned out is gonna go pro.

And Shane put up a post on his
LinkedIn about this person's decision

should he have stayed in college

or not.

It was that decision and I actually
made a comment on what I thought

he should do, and I thought it
was a pretty educated comment.

Brandon, I spent seven years
as a head of human resources.

I, I have known athletes

and

then.

Edge.

Yeah.

And, but then the next two people
that commented on Shane's Post had

both been high level college athletes
who had an opportunity to turn pro

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: and the perspective they
gave on, uh, Cooper Flag is the name

of the athlete on, on Cooper Flag's
decision whether or not to go pro.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I had a point, but
they had a point and experience.

And actually brought perspective.

I could have never had, 'cause I had
never played, I've never played high

level college athletics or been recruited.

I've seen the same thing
in family businesses.

There are a lot of people when you
have a family business inside a company

that want to talk to you about it.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: Uh, and I, it can be an
accountant, an attorney, a wealth manager,

and it could be people that have worked
with other family owned companies as well.

And they do have a place.

But there is something that is
totally different when you have

been the one that worked in it.

It, I was at a conference of some wealth
managers, and these were people who worked

with phenomenal family owned companies,
families of tremendous wealth, and it was

a couple a day conference and somewhere in
the second day, if you wanted, if you want

an example, somewhere in the second day,
uh, I, I put my hand up and I said, Hey.

And it had about 20 people in the room.

Uh.

And I was the only one in the room who
had ever worked with their own family.

They were all advisors.

So I was very junior to
them in advising families.

But I was the only one who had
actually worked in a company.

And I said, Hey, I've noticed over
the last couple days, anytime we,

anyone in the room has talked about
the next generation, so not the owning

or controlling generation, but that
next or rising generation, we've

called them boys, girls, and kids.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: Someone
had just told a story.

I said the story you just told.

I think the boy was 53 years old.

Brandon Giella: Wow.

Adam Hatcher: And when you're
working with, when you haven't

worked with your own family, you
don't know what that feels like.

But I've been at the chamber
of it as an executive.

When someone with my brother, who's
also a sales executive and had

someone look at my father and say,
well, these your boys, like well.

We're married and our wives have advanced
degrees, and our executive leaders, like

we have children, like my, my sister
hasn't been a girl since for a long time.

Don't call her that.

And that's, it's kind of a funny
example, but Brandon, I've read some

really great books by some people
who have studied family businesses

and there's some stuff in the
stories and examples and advice they

give that just need another click.

They need that inside perspective as well.

And you can't get it.

Just like I couldn't get
it by watching sports.

I couldn't give a good advice
to Cooper flag watching sports.

You need, there's something different
when you've worked inside, when you've

been in the boardroom, when you've been
in the executive suite, when you've

had to, my phrase is, go to the island.

When you have to have that hard
family business conversation and

it's, it feels like the most lonely
place you could go, but you have to

go there 'cause you owe it to the
family, the company, and the clients.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

What it makes me think of is I've been
to business school, I have an MBA.

Running a business is totally different
experience from getting an MBA and

being in business school and doing
financial models and things like that.

Like I get the gist, I get the
topics, the concepts, but running

a company is totally different.

The burden, the responsibility, the, the
late nights, you don't get that in school.

And so I I, it's kind of a
parallel the kind of things

that you're talking about here.

Adam Hatcher: It is.

I, I told someone recently a, a, uh,
I met a phenomenal executive in a

publicly traded company once, and he
was the one that sat down with the CEO

and pointed out some strategic gaps
in the company that he wanted to fix.

And all of his fellow execs
held him up as a hero.

And, and I told him, I
was like, that's great.

Now I want you to, if you wanna understand
a family business, have that be your

father, have that be your grandfather.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: Uh, you may have given
a performance review, but if you're

my dad, you had to give a perform.

I reported to my father for 13

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Yeah.

Adam Hatcher: He had to give a
performance review to your son.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Adam Hatcher: It's.

There is an extra layer.

That's why it's that company and
then there's that other family

business layer on the other side.

Brandon Giella: That's so powerful.

Well, I love that you have this experience
and you're, you're very seasoned.

You've got like an amazing.

Uh, bio or cv.

I just love it.

Um, and so I'm really excited for you
to apply that experience, tell these

stories, you know, the, the kind of
thing where like you were there, you

were in the room, and have other people
who are in the room and doing it and,

and the kind of things that they've
learned because I think it's really key,

um, to have that kind of storytelling
and that perspective with the expertise

that you have later on top of that.

So.

I'm really excited for the show and I'm
excited to meet some of these guests

that are gonna be coming on because I
know they're all gonna be as illustrious,

as inimitable as you're going to be.

And so I can't wait to meet them and,
and hear, and I'm excited for listeners

to get, get an inside take on who
is Adam Hatcher, what is 21 Clear?

And what are we doing here?

So I'm really, really stoked.

Adam Hatcher: Yeah, I,
I'm excited about it too.

And we will have a diversity there.

There, there will be people that are,
have worked with family businesses or

been in a family business or just worked
around, worked around family companies.

But what we're gonna do, Brandon, is
filter everything back through that lens.

So we'll filter everything
back through that lens.

Of creating a healthy family business.

So there's a great company
with a solid family around it.

Brandon Giella: Amazing.

Amazing.

Amen.

Well, Adam, thank you.

I'm excited and we'll
see you next episode.

Adam Hatcher: Sounds great.

So for everybody who tuned
in, thank you so much.

This is the Pilot, it's the first
episode of the 21 Clear Podcast.

Uh, Brandon.

Uh, thank you so much for hosting.

This is Brandon Ello from Snap Market.

Our theme, our bumper is, uh, still hot
by Nick d and Connor Drake chosen, uh,

by my son Harris, and my son Andrew.

So I look forward to, uh, the
next episodes we have together.

You can subscribe to the newsletter,
visit us on the website, or

looked at us on LinkedIn.

Thank you so much for joining.

We'll talk to you again soon.

Brandon Giella: Bye.