The Twenty One Clear Podcast

Adam Hatcher: Hey there.

Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast where
we talk about anything to help you

chaos proof your family business.

I'm your host, Adam Hatcher, the
founder of 21 Clear, and today

we're going to start a two.

Episode string where I am joined
by Melissa Mitchell Blitch.

Melissa wrote a great book called
In The Company of Family, how to

Thrive When Business Is Personal.

Um, we met through a mutual friend.

I read the book and we've talked
about it and their concept.

In this book that the day I joined my
family company, I wish I had known.

I wish, in September of 2010,
someone had had this book and

explained the ideas in it.

And what Melissa's gonna talk
through is the concept of boundaries.

I'm gonna let her explain it in the.

In the podcast, but this is an idea
that when you work with your family

for it to be chaos proof, it is
an important foundational concept.

So.

I'm gonna talk with Melissa to introduce
the idea, and then we're going to

explain it and unpack it a bit more.

And then in the second episode,
we're actually gonna take one.

We're just gonna do a little popcorn
and give you three things you

need to know in a family business.

I'll explain that more later.

Let me get to the first part of our
podcast with Melissa Mitchell Blitch.

Melissa, it is so fun to be on
the 21 Clear Podcast with you.

How are you today?

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Good morning.

I am well and grateful for it.

How about yourself?

Adam Hatcher: We, I am well, and when we
open this podcast, I do a little bumper

and I talk about the guest a little bit.

But what I found fascinating when you
and I met, and I have not told this story

well for the listeners yet, is how you
came to working with family businesses

and really focusing on their dynamics
with each other, your career history.

Do you mind talking
about that for a minute?

It's fascinating to me.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Glad to.

It is why I do what I do.

I had a window into the lives
of enterprising families.

Families who had had tremendous
financial success, always as

a result of a family business.

They were at a stage where they may or may
not own it, work in it together, but their

lives were very financially interdependent
and I saw the challenge that combining

family and wealth and enterprise.

Created and I was in the
chair of a, a wealth advisor.

I worked for a big five firm and their
family wealth planning group, we did

what may be called estate planning.

That was my window into their lives.

And I saw how challenging wealth is
inherently, how challenging, you know,

that financial interdependence was.

And I wanted somebody to be able to help
our families navigate that, explore that

thrive in the midst of that challenge.

And this was the late nineties.

Went to the worldwide web quite a few
times, looking for who knows what because,

what do you call that sort of person?

Couldn't find it,
couldn't find that person.

And eventually in 2003, just realized,
you know, there's a true need here.

I hope someone on on the planet
is doing something about it.

But if they are, I'm not finding them.

This is a true need.

It's not going away.

I'm increasingly interested in it.

I believe this is my calling.

So I left finance in 2003, got a
master's in psychology because I

needed to understand family dynamics
and motivation and emotional wellbeing

and all those sort of things that
I didn't understand as a CPA.

And that is what inspired me to do
this work today, was just seeing a

need and felt feeling compelled for
someone to help families with it.

And if I couldn't find someone
else, it was gonna be me.

Adam Hatcher: I remember being at
a conference of wealth managers

and somebody said something that
reminds me of what you just said.

Uh, we were in a break and he said, Adam,
he was a wealth advisor and an independent

advisor versus with one of the big firms.

And he said, Adam, there's something
different about working on the

dynamics between family members.

He said, I have a client and his
only goal is to make more money.

That is his legacy, and I've realized
that in helping him make more money,

I am actually hurting his marriage
and his sons and his daughter.

I assume you saw something similar.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Ooh, yes, I can.

While there were many clients
who inspired me, I could.

There I only needed one.

I call him Jack, not his real name, but
he hired us when he'd been given three to

six months to live, to create a plan for
him to have what we call professionally

as controlled from the grave.

So that could.

The company would continue to go the
the way that he wanted it to, and his

son wanted it to, but his daughter
partnered with the uncle wanting the

company to go into another direction.

He wanted control from the grave,
and yay we were able to create legal

structures to help him do that.

It was, ugh, devastating
is not too big of a word.

It was devastating to me to see that
we could get our job right as the

technical advisors to help protect,
grow, transfer assets according

to the desires of our client and
cause harm to their family members.

It wrecked me.

It wrecked me.

That was all the inspiration
that I needed, and neither

had to be a better way.

There had to be a better way.

Adam Hatcher: What did you find then
as you stepped into, you said you

stepped into the internet and you
said, well, what do I even call this?

And then you stepped into psychology.

When you started looking for a
better way, what did you find?

And dif, can you differentiate Melissa
now from Melissa and Melissa then?

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Oh, Adam, that
is a big question that we could have

hours and hours of conversation on.

Um,

but what comes to mind is a, you know,
thread as a part of that is, you know,

what motivations are we gonna act on?

Are we gonna act on, you know, his des
desire was to control that has a root

in fear or, you know, to protect against
a future that he was afraid of, didn't

want, you know, or are we going to act on
hope, faith, love, you know, freedom h.

Um, choosing the motivation, being
aware of the motivation that's driving

our preferences, our values, and really
being honest with ourself of what

motivations we want to live out of.

That's a, a nutshell for a big all answer.

Adam Hatcher: Yeah.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Just just
one, one part, but an important part

Adam Hatcher: And as, so that's a,
something that you would have not

leaned into as a wealth advisor.

Like that conversation

would not have naturally come up with Jack

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: To, yeah.

To challenge Jack for his good, you
know, around that, to invite him to,

you know, pressure test it himself.

Yes, within that role as the financial
advisor, it's what do you want?

Alright.

Our job is to help you accomplish that.

And that's been one of the ways
that I've grown tremendously is,

you know, to get the right answers,
you have to ask the right questions.

And being willing to ask those questions
that invite someone to consider something

from a different perspective, to open
up, you know, we all have blind spots.

What might I not have considered here?

What might be another opportunity here?

We didn't have that skillset as, you
know, the technical advisors to ask

those insight provoking questions.

Not to say that no technical advisors do.

I didn't, I didn't, and I didn't
see that in our, in our team either.

There wasn't the ability there
or there wasn't any willingness.

Or maybe it was somewhere in,
in the middle, but we weren't.

Typically asking those sort of questions
to be sure that our client had considered

some things, to be sure that our
client actually knew what they did want

Adam Hatcher: I, I shared with

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: the future that
they were hoping for, not just protecting

against the future they were afraid of.

Adam Hatcher: right in, in a future
that is not just financial but

has other components around it.

I mean, I told somebody once, don't
put, don't expect of, for example, a

wills and estates attorney for them
to ask you about your interaction

between you and your daughter.

That's not how they're paid.

Or let me look at a wealth manager.

They're paid generally to steward assets
under management and to help you execute

a plan to expect them to understand and
to focus on the dynamics between family.

Particularly if you have a family
company involved that's just

outside of both their pay structure.

They might.

But having someone that can help you
focus in a dedicated way on some of the

critical issues and dynamics between
family, particularly when you have a

company, it's important and it's distinct,
which is, when I read your book, did not

read like a wealth manager's book at all.

So you wrote a book called In
the Company of Family How to

Thrive When Business is Personal.

If people are watching on YouTube,
I'm looking 'cause I keep a

copy of it right next to me.

So you go, you begin to take this turn
into psychology and working on dynamics

and then you anchor this book in some
key concepts or even a key concept.

Share that with us.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: I will,
and with your permission, I wanna

backtrack for just a minute to say,
you know, technical advisors that we

were speaking of, they may not get
paid to have those conversations.

They may know their lane and
their lane is not to have those

conversations and they may be.

Like, I was just kind of oblivious to
how, how to, to have those conversations.

Comfort, confidence,
competence, capability.

You know, the way that I grew the
most, I learned a ton going back to

psychology, having a, a career as
a counselor to get some experience

and applying what I had learned.

I learned and grew a
lot as a professional.

I also learned and grew a lot as a person.

So my professional development, I
can, I can remember me in my CPA

days and I can remember me now and
gratefully, I'm a very different person.

I needed to grow a lot, so I need for it.

I wanted to do it, but I needed to
grow as a person to be able to show

up in a professional capacity to
have those sort of conversations.

Um, and one of the, one of the
areas that I learned about in my

transition process, that growth
process was learning about boundaries.

Woo.

And I can imagine your listeners, some of
them are lighting up some of those, some

of them are cringing, understandably.

But I really, I discovered, I saw in
the lives of my clients and myself,

the power of healthy boundaries,
and that is the focus of the book.

Adam Hatcher: I wish.

So I started in my family company in 2010.

I wish in my onboarding
someone had sat me down and.

about this concept with me.

I didn't find it until I was at a
family conference in maybe 2016 was the

first time I heard it, and it took me
about three or four years and different

mentors and coaches to figure out what
this meant, this idea was, and then

how it applied when you work together
or own a company with your family.

Can you explain the concept?

Imagine Adam Hatcher is 28 years old.

He is not, he had no reaction
to you saying boundaries

'cause he has no idea what

it means.

Like, talk to me then and say, Adam,
welcome to your family company.

Let me explain an idea to you.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Yes.

Well, I love that we're starting here
for a number of reasons, including,

you know, like words matter, you
know, they carry weight, they carry

interpretation, they carry experience.

And so if we're gonna talk about
boundaries in our conversation,

let's, let's get clear about
what we're talking about.

The working definition that I
like to use of a boundary is

that a boundary is anything that
differentiates one thing from another.

And its purpose is to promote the
good and protect against the bad.

That's a boundary.

And so boundaries really just show up.

It's not a matter of do we do
boundaries or do we not do boundaries.

Boundaries naturally result
from our, from our choices.

We can do that intentionally or
we can do that accidentally, but

boundaries just are, and in a family
business, there are a lot of ways

that, there are a lot of boundaries
in a family business that don't have

flashing lights of this is a boundary.

They just show up in daily
decisions and processes.

Like who?

Who gets to be involved
in decision making?

Who gets the voice?

Who gets the vote?

How, what are the criteria for
hiring, promotion, and leadership?

That's a boundary.

Are they applied consistently?

Mm-hmm.

Is, that's a boundary, how feedback
is given from what role, where

decisions or where conversations are
had when there's poor performance.

How is feedback given?

And where do the consequences of that lie?

All those things.

Those are boundaries.

Those are boundaries.

Those are boundaries.

Those are boundaries.

And so in the book I talk
about principles of boundaries.

You know, a lot of those, some of
those are pretty straightforward.

Some of those may be complex, um, choices
for enterprising families to make.

So in the book, I talk about principles
that can help bring simplicity to

that complexity, giving you different
angles, different principles of

healthy boundaries to consider.

So they're meant to promote the
good, protect against the bad.

Can someone practice boundaries
in a way that feels manipulative,

controlling against me?

Absolutely.

But boundaries as a whole, you
know, that's, that's just an

application and use of boundaries.

It's not the boundaries themself.

Boundaries are meant to promote
wellbeing for the individuals,

the family, the enterprise.

They're meant to promote good
and protect against the bad.

What are some things that we
might consider to discern what

healthy boundaries look like?

Adam Hatcher: Let me ask you about a
simple boundary, then just a, a physical

world boundary, and then I wanna ask
you about one of the principles in the

book that the way you expressed it, I
just really enjoyed, okay, so simple.

Let me try to give you an
example and see how you react.

All right.

Very simple.

Non-family business.

Uh, I have a neighbor.

I like my neighbor a lot actually.

I like all my neighbors a lot.

However, we have an eight
foot fence between our yards.

Is a property line that is very clearly.

There's, very clearly here and there.

Likewise, in my house
are different bedrooms.

There's a room where my wife

and I are, and there's rooms where
my sons are, and I don't necessarily

like it when they, when they cross

in at two in the morning and wake me up.

Like those are, those are examples of
just practical, real world boundaries.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: They are.

Anything that differentiates one thing
from another, that property line of

responsibility reminds me of a couple
months ago, my husband and I were walking

around the backyard and you're like,
oh, that tree died, and what do we do?

The first place we looked, it was
like, oh, whose line is that on?

Oh, it's on this side of the fence.

So it was behind some bushes.

It's on this side of the fence.

It's our responsibility.

We need to take care of that.

So boundaries, healthy boundaries,
awareness of boundaries, can provide

clarity and can, again, just protect
what's, what's good, you and your wife,

like having a quiet, you know, kid
free bedroom when you were sleeping.

And so it's like, all right.

Here, kiddos, you know, this is our space.

It's meant to protect our sleep
and, and that sort of thing.

It's meant to protect, promote good,
and protect against the bad, and to

provide clarity so that we know instead
of being like an invisible, oops,

I, I violated your boundary, oops.

You know, like, oh, I'm gonna
get shocked or zapped like a

dog with an invisible fence.

Adam Hatcher: Well, there's
a freedom in it too.

As you were saying that I was thinking
about the fence in my backyard.

So it's not just saying no, like
that's his yard and this is mine.

When we cut the grass in my
backyard, I get to stop at the fence.

Like I'm not responsible

for his plants.

I'm not responsible for the, like
you said, your neighbor's, the

tree on your neighbor's property.

Like there is also a freedom that comes

with this because I only have.

A limited responsibility within the fence

line.

Alright, so in family companies,
you gave a couple of examples

of how this can come up.

There's a principle that you
write about in the book that

I wanted to ask you about.

It's boundary laden and I found
it really fun and instructive.

Alright, so you have, uh, an
idea where you say things.

Are they fair, firm, and friendly as
a trial lawyer or former trial lawyer?

I love alliteration,
so I appreciated that.

So one of your principles of
boundaries is fair, firm, and friendly.

Explain that.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch:
Healthy boundaries are fair.

They are firm, they're friendly, and
there's another chapter that you haven't

alluded to, but they're also flexible.

Um, again, this is, this is a big subject,
but I wanna, if I, with your permission, I

want to zoom in on actually that contrast.

Fairness is a hot topic in family
businesses, understandably.

Um, you know, like friendly when I, you
know, when I communicate a, a boundary

or in the decision making about a,
a boundary, you know, like someone's

gonna be prob maybe be disappointed,
let's say leadership selection.

You know, someone may be disappointed
that they weren't selected for the leader.

I can be friendly in letting them
know, here's, here's what kept you

from being ready yet for a promotion.

I can do it in a friendly way that
says, I'm for you and I'm gonna

actually support you and continue.

I'm here to help you continue to grow,
to, to move, to have greater opportunities

for that advancement that you want.

But healthy boundaries are
also both firm and flex.

There are times where it is wise to do
what we said we would do, and there's

times when it's wise to actually flex
that, you know, it's kinda like a, a

rubber band, you know, being able to
just stretch it without breaking it.

Adam Hatcher: when you wrote that,
uh, that's the cover of your book, how

to Thrive when Business is Personal.

I thought if you haven't worked with
your own family, that might not hit

you in the heart when you read it.

But if you have, you know that
like it's one thing I've had before

I joined the family company, 10
different jobs for free pay or credit.

I was a good fit in some of them
and not a good fit in other ones.

So I know what the ups and
downs of employment are, but

man, none of 'em felt personal.

None of them, not even like that.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: And, and even if
it has felt personal, you know, it being

someone that you love takes personal to
a whole nother level because there are

people who are like, I care about my
team members, I care about my employees.

It's hard to let 'em go, or hard
to, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

So even for your listeners who
have felt the personal nature of

some of these decisions, imagine
it being with a family member.

Imagining it being with someone you
deeply love, who you are likely to know

for the rest of your life and interact
with for the rest of your life, you know,

not just until they take another job.

Just that history and that longevity
and that depth of relationship

takes the personal nature of it
just to a whole nother level.

Adam Hatcher: And I love as you,
as you just played that out, and

I hope for people listening, they
feel how different that is than

talking about what percentage of your
portfolio is in cash versus equities.

Those are important conversations,
but those don't naturally turn

into fair firm, flexible it.

It's focused.

Different and it's important work.

So what we did here for about, I
think this has been about just short

of 25 minutes, is we wanted to,
Melissa and I wanted to set these

ideas, okay, what are boundaries?

How do they relate to a family company?

What are some ways that they
show up in the family company?

What we're gonna do in the next episode
is we're going to unpack one word.

Melissa said that when I read her
book, which is also on audio book.

Uh, so no matter how you
take your book, it's there.

Uh, this idea of flexible in doing work
with families in having been in my own

family company, this idea of flexibility,
there's a lot to unpack there.

And what Melissa and I are gonna do is
just give you three things to think about.

In the next podcast about
flexibility in family companies.

So Melissa, thank you so much
for joining this episode.

Uh, in the show notes,
there is going to be a link.

You write a newsletter, right?

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: Occasionally

Adam Hatcher: Okay.

Some

Melissa Mitchell Blitch: flexible.

It doesn't let a flexible schedule.

Adam Hatcher: but Melissa's website is
in the show notes and also her book in

the Company of Family, how to Thrive When
Business Is Personal is there as well.

I enjoyed it so much.

We spent this time together
and we're gonna do it again.

So Melissa, thank you so much.

Melissa Mitchell Blitch:
My pleasure, Adam.

Look forward to part two.